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Talk:Proto-Vulcan humanoid
There's no evidence the Rigelians, or Romulans, or any vulcanoid species use musical notation as a language. In fact, the Vulcan written language only resembles earth musical notation, and I'm sure wasn't their intention when pre-historic vulcans invented it. I would suggest loosing that sentence. -AJHalliwell 22:03, 17 May 2005 (UTC) : Watch "The Paradise Syndrome" Spock talks about that, although he didn't give any names. --TOSrules 22:24, 6 March 2006 (UTC) ---- Remans? Are we sure about this? Jaf 21:13, 21 January 2006 (UTC)Jaf Made Up Word? I've done a little bit of checking around and I cannot find where the word "vulcanoid" was ever spoken by anyone in the Trek universe. It is not a standard English word, I am unaware of it being on any graphics, and it isn't in the Star Trek Encyclopedia. In fact, the Encyclopedia terms Vulcans "humanoid". Did this word come from somewhere? If made up, why? Aholland 21:58, 6 March 2006 (UTC) : Do they not use the word "proto-Vulcanoid" in "Who Watches the Watchers?" If someone can watch the episode and answer, cause I think that is most likely the source.--Tim Thomason 22:14, 6 March 2006 (UTC) ::That's what I thought as well, but according to the script, it was "proto-Vulcan humanoids" (someone might still want to check the actual episode, though). -- Cid Highwind 22:39, 6 March 2006 (UTC) ::: Actually, Vulcanoid is a real hypothetical term if you're into that stuff, however it does not apply to the Vulcanoid this page refers to. As to confirm Cid's above entry, if you are referring to Troi's line in the 'teaser', then yes, she said "proto-Vulcan humanoid"-- however, this is coming from a human-o-centric p.o.v.-- perhaps in the case of Vulcans, ancient humans were described as "proto-Human vulcanoids." :) --Alan del Beccio 00:49, 7 March 2006 (UTC) :I don't think the species point of view matters, to be honest. Spock constantly used humanoid as the operative phrase. See "The Empath", "The Gamesters of Triskelion", "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield", "And the Children Shall Lead", "The Devil in the Dark", and doubtless others. And Tuvok also used the term: "Caretaker". T'Pol used it too: "Strange New World". In "Caretaker", Paris said "Humanoid life signs over here. I'm reading a Vulcan and several humans." That would indicate that the term "humanoid" is intended to be broad enough to encompass Vulcans. The Doctor in VOY: "Someone to Watch Over Me" also used the term "humanoid" to describe the thousands of species in the galaxy, and he was always quite precise. And so on. In fact, there is not one instance I am aware of in the entire series in which anyone using Federation standard (i.e., English) used a term to describe a creature similar in appearance to a human as anything other than a "humanoid". So I submit that unless someone finds a source for it the term Vulcanoid is something that would be meaningless in Federation standard. Aholland 04:10, 7 March 2006 (UTC) :::Okay wow...you totally missed my point. --Alan del Beccio 04:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC) ::Sorry - I had taken the point to be that it was possible that species-bias could explain the use of "humanoid" instead of "vulcanoid" in dialogue. The examples of usage of humanoid in Federation standard still applies, but it seems I didn't need to get into it quite as much as I did! Aholland 04:27, 7 March 2006 (UTC) ::So I'm wondering what to do with this article. There is a little bit of good information in it (although some of it is incorrect or unsupported extrapolations). But as "Vulcanoid" isn't a Trek word, isn't an independent English word applicable to Trek (like polywater), and appears to have been made up by someone on Memory Alpha, I'm a little uncomfortable with this as a Trek Universe article as currently written. I may work on it a bit. Aholland 19:03, 7 March 2006 (UTC) : First of all, I was always under the impression that "Vulcanoid" was a type of Humanoid, and I don't think there's a problem with Vulcans (and all other "Vulcanoids") being called humanoid. Anyways, since Vulcanoid was never ever in a million years used, perhaps we should simply move the article to, um, "Proto-Vulcan humanoid" or something.--Tim Thomason 19:20, 7 March 2006 (UTC) ::Take a look first at how I've worked on it and see if it merits keeping as a separate entry on not. I'm on the fence about it. Aholland 19:42, 7 March 2006 (UTC) :::First, I'd like to say that I really, really, really, really dislike the use of the term "Federation Standard" (this isn't Star Wars), and I like the idea that they are descended from Sargon's people, so that should be either re-expanded or placed back in the article. So are you suggesting that we have both this page (discussing Vulcanish guys) and also a "proto-Vulcan humanoid" page (discussing the canonical classification of the Mintakans)?--Tim Thomason 19:58, 7 March 2006 (UTC) :I was just playing with the article to see if I could turn it into something that worked. I may have failed. If kept, I would suggest: :*Replacing "Federation standard" with "English" as I suspect you are right. What can I say, it was a fast edit. :) :*NOT having a separate page on "proto-Vulcan humanoid". The term was only used once, and I'd suggest simply describing its use in the Mintakan article itself. :*The Vulcans may, or may not, be decended from Sargon's people. The episode only said that Sargon's people, having visited many worlds and left seeds of life there, may "tend . . . to explain certain elements of Vulcan prehistory." But so might the existence of the ancient humanoids. So I would suggest not definitely linking Sargon to Vulcan except as an aside, as in the rewrite. :I would also support a deletion of the page. As I said, I'm on the fence about it. Aholland 20:38, 7 March 2006 (UTC) ::I took a crack at it, then I saw this last note. My version was no better a solution, so I reverted it. --Aurelius Kirk 21:26, 7 March 2006 (UTC) T'Lani and Kellerun? I'm wondering why the T'Lani and Kellerun are referenced here, just because of the pointed ears? If that is so, we could just as well add the Halanans, Terrellians, Ramurans (the same ear-piece was re-used for the three species) and Ocampa. --Jörg 22:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC) * There is none, I removed that. --Alan del Beccio 00:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Vulcan/Rigelian connection What exactly is the dialog in Journey to Babel and Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges that connects Vulcans to Rigelians? Jaf 23:35, 7 March 2006 (UTC)Jaf :Basically that they share a similar biology or chemistry. (I cut out the Spock/McCoy bickering and placed only the relevant dialog below.) ;"Journey to Babel": :*McCoy: Mrs. Sarek, you must understand the chances are extremely small to find a way to produce sufficient T-negative blood. ' :*McCoy: I see it, Spock, but that was a Rigelian. :*Spock: Rigelian physiology is very similar to Vulcan. :*McCoy: Similar is not good enough. It's still experimental. :*Spock: But it does look promising. :*McCoy: Spock, we would need such great amounts of blood that, even if the drug worked on the Vulcans, as well as a Rigelian, which I'm doubtful, it would still drain Sarek to a critical level. ' :*McCoy: A chemical stimulant to speed up reproduction and replacement of blood in the body. It's, uh, only experimental. :*Spock: It has been used successfully on test subjects on Rigel V. :*McCoy: It places a tremendous strain on the spleen and the liver. ;"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges": :* Sloan: There's another rumor about Koval not contained in his file. We've heard he's ill. Something called Tuvan Syndrome. :*Bashir: I'm familiar with it. It's a neurological disease affecting mostly Romulans, Vulcans and Rigelians. It's degenerative and incurable at present. :From the dialog above, I think I see where the connection is made that indicates that Rigel V is, in the least, occupied by the Rigelians, if not, their homeworld. Something that was questioned on Talk:Rigelian. Additionally, the same dialog seems to make the T-negative connection to Rigelians as well, althought it could be a much simplier connection, such as the connection of replicating their blood (in general) and that it would work on Vulcans due to a simliar chemistry they share. Maybe the Rigelians have copper-based blood as well. --Alan del Beccio 00:26, 8 March 2006 (UTC) :: I should note that aside from the obvious differences in physical appearance between the Vulcans and Romulans vs. Rigelians (as we saw in ENT), there was also some throw away line in "Cogenitor" about the Rigelians having multiple sexes (genders), which seems to be another stark contrast (from what we know) between them and the Vulcan/Romulans. --Alan del Beccio 00:32, 8 March 2006 (UTC)